Where are the femslash epics?

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Title:	Where are the femslash epics?
Creator:	teaforme
Date(s):	December 1, 2003
Medium:	online
Fandom:	multifandom
Topic:	Femslash
External Links:	Where are the femslash epics?
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Where are the femslash epics? is a 2003 rec request post on the Livejournal community, Femslash - Slash Philosophy, by teaforme.

Post

Where's all the good femslash? Does anybody know?

My main fandom these days is LotR. Frankly, there aren't many plausible f/f pairings there. Galadriel/? Everyone's either related (which can be okay, it depends) or they just wouldn't come into contact, or there isn't enough canon background to make it interesting.

As for other fandoms, it seems that too often the female characters just aren't as well developed, or there's only one female character that's interesting enough to slash. Also, even in the event that you actually have two hot female characters with some plausible connection and chemistry, femslash is, imo, notoriously tepid. Why is that?

Any thoughts on femslash?

Comments on the Post

[pridian]
Most likely because most people who write slash are female in the first place and we tend to find female character as bitches because we feel threatened by them.

And most people don't even bother to create back stories for characters. Pshaw that's half the fun! I made this whole backstory up for Gregory Goyle and his family. And whenever I read about Goyle, even in the actual books, I feel so bad for him >.<

That's really all I can see...

[ladybretagne]
Most likely because most people who write slash are female in the first place and we tend to find female character as bitches because we feel threatened by them. I would agree that a lot of the reason probably has to do with the number of female slash writers, but feeling threatened? I've seen a lot of the making female characters out to be bitches to get the two pretty boys in bed in some badfic, but I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that fandom at large is threatened by female characters.

[pridian]
I think we are and not just in fiction but in real life as well.

I mean when a chick doesn't like another female because they're better at something than them they call them all these names saying they're stupid and the sort.

It's really hard to get along with another female for a long time.

Go read alot of the stories, you'll notice that there's a certain hatred towards most girls in the plot even if it's subtle or not intentional. But it's there.

[ladybretagne]
Not saying that jealousy and cattiness don't exist, certainly there's lots of that in life and in fiction, I just think it's a rather unkind estimation of our gender and fandom at large to say that it's true in as many cases as you're making it seem. I think the hatred of female canon characters has more to do with laziness on the part of authors and not wanting to have to do any real work to get the female characters out of the way so two pretty boys can go shag than anything, but perhaps I'm just being overly hopeful.

[pridian]
I strictly read slash in the Harry Potter fandom so I see it all the time, in hundreds of stories. The Patil twins get it alot. And for girls who like Draco Malfoy, Pansy just gets turned into this twit who is a huge whore, can't talk, and Draco bashes on her all the time. They have Draco say what they themselves want to say to her.

Whenever I write though, I try to make it more realistic. Because there's a reason why Pansy is in Slytherin. I do write alot of backstories for my characters and I come to realize why they act one way in certain situations.

However, since reading fanfics, I have lost all respect and hate all characters except Draco Malfoy, Seamus Finnigan, and Gregory Goyle. That's it, I don't even like Harry. hahaha ^-^

Plus I run my own archive so I've sifted through many a stories with blatant dislike for all female characters.

But even in the actual books, especially book five, I just wanted to smack Hermione. She didn't seem strong, and she just always seemed like she wanted to cry whenever Harry yelled at her or did anything to her. I was not pleased with her at all. And then Ginny just goes around and dates alot of people. But then again, I didn't like her being some wimpy, fearful "Oh, I have a crush on Harry so I better shove my elbow in the butter"

I just find them to be weak, and I don't like weak characters. Of course, the books are almost all from Harry's point of view, so maybe that's saying something about his personality?

[ladybretagne]
That's pretty much why I am far more interested in slash in my fandoms than het. I'm mostly involved in Les Miserables and Horatio Hornblower, and there is a huge lack of female characters at all in those stories, and in the case of Hornblower the female characters that there are are just so incredibly irritating I can't stomach writing or reading them. When the options for writing are really interesting, well developed male characters who have some great pre-existing relationships in canon, female characters who either have no real opportunity for interaction with characters outside their canon storyline or aren't that interesting in general, or original characters, I'll take slash far and away.

[smirnoffmule]
Yeah, I guess most slashers want the boys. Which is a shame.

I think Christine is right about the lack of female character development. The girls are just eye-candy in too many fandoms, or just there to act as a love interest for the male - no independant existence or development. Much as I like girl-eye-candy, I need a bit of personality to give me the fic-writing itch, and that's often sadly lacking.

As for why, once these obstacles have been over come, femmeslash is still tepid, umm. I don't know. Well, when you come to think of it, a lot of boy-slash is pretty tepid, but there's enough of it out there that you can wade through the tepid and find the ones that shine. Maybe femslash doesn't have a big enough gene pool.

• shrug*

[teaforme]
Much as I like girl-eye-candy, I need a bit of personality to give me the fic-writing itch, and that's often sadly lacking.

And as a reader, I'm looking for well-developed characters that are true to canon. You're right about the eye-candy aspect--too many female characters are just the love interest, with nothing going for them as compelling characters.

As for slashers wanting the boys, I think that's very true. One hunk = good, two hunks = better! But, what about readers and writers who are bisexual or lesbian? I've sometimes wondered whether the absence of hot femslash is because straight women don't know how to write a hot lesbian sex scene, or just aren't interested. But, in a way that argument doesn't make sense--after all, plenty of women are writing really hot m/m sex scenes! What gives?

Maybe femslash doesn't have a big enough gene pool.

Sadly, this could be true.

[smirnoffmule]
This may sound a bit stoopid on my part, but anyhow - as a bisexual slasher with a general RL preference for the ladies, I find I can write a m/m scene quite easily, but when it comes to writing f/f, I suddenly get all squicked and embarassed... it just feels *too* personal. M/m is easier, because it has less emotional investment for me. That may well be just me, however, and my colourful and exciting hang-ups, and I guess it makes me a bit of a timid writer... however, I've been enjoying Buffy/Faith thoughts for a while now, and this conversation may be just the catalyst I need to write it down. I agree about straight women and lesbian sex scenes. If straight women have the imagination (or have done the research) to write hot, realistic m/m, you'd think they'd be able to figure out f/f. But maybe the problem is not so much they can't, but that they don't want to? Lots of women find m/m attractive, and so it's easy to fantasize about and imagine scenes. But if you don't find f/f attractive, why would you bother? *Do* straight women write f/f? That may be a dense question, but I honestly don't know. Whenever I read f/f I always assume the author is at least bisexual.

[teaforme]
Whenever I read f/f I always assume the author is at least bisexual.

Me too, and I wonder how accurate that is. I guess that is probably is pretty accurate, and I agree with your "why bother" argument as to why straight women wouldn't write f/f slash. There's no interest.

as a bisexual slasher with a general RL preference for the ladies, I find I can write a m/m scene quite easily, but when it comes to writing f/f, I suddenly get all squicked and embarassed... it just feels *too* personal.

I never thought of that angle. I'm a bi slasher also. And I know there are plenty of bi writers out there writing fantastic m/m slash, and het fic. Does anyone know if there are any lesbian slash writers? There we might run into lack of interest from the opposite viewpoint--why would a lesbian write m/m slash. And, if lesbians are writing femslash, where is it? Xena? You'd think the Buffy fandom would be full of it, as there are lesbian characters on the show.

Is femslash too personal a subject for bi and lesbian writers? How is that different from straight writers writing het? Or maybe there's not the same support and sense of community for and among f/f writers, and hence less momentum and incentive to write. If nobody likes your story because it doesn't include Hot Guy du Jour, perhaps it would affect the desire to write more f/f.

[lovessong]
There are lesbian m/m slash writers, although I can't name names without violating people's privacy. (I'm more of a lesbian than bi myself, but don't write much, and what I write is basically gen. I read slash, though.)

Lesbians and femslash . . . *shrugs* I don't know where it is, myself. I mean, there is Xena, which may be slash technically, but works differently than slash in any other fandom I've seen, and which goes by "alt" and "alt uber" instead of slash. Then there's the Kitten board, which seems to attract a lot of the same kinds of folks as Xena uber (although I'm not involved there, so don't take my word for it.)

For me, the appeal in m/m slash is a sense of transgression and boundary-crossing that's just not as common in f/f pairings, *especially* canon pairings.

[teaforme]
I mean, there is Xena, which may be slash technically, but works differently than slash in any other fandom I've seen, and which goes by "alt" and "alt uber" instead of slash.

Wow, I've never heard of "alt" or "alt uber" in fandom. But then, I don't get around much. I'm something of a serial monogamist when it comes to fandoms.

For me, the appeal in m/m slash is a sense of transgression and boundary-crossing that's just not as common in f/f pairings, *especially* canon pairings.

Do you think that this is because male homosexuality is seen by society as more transgressive?

[lovessong]
In Xena fandom (which was my first fandom, incidentally, in my pre-slash days), alt=what we would call f/f slash or femslash, always centered around Xena/Gabrielle. Uber is a Xena/Gabrielle AU, where the character's personalities and physical features are taken to a completely different setting. (The feeling behind it is that Xena & Gabrielle are archetypes who have eternal resonance.)

The latest movement in that fandom has been toward publication, which means the uber stories are also moving towards original fiction (losing their ties to the canon, and to Xena and Gabrielle). Thus, we get a very strong "lesbian romance novel" vibe, and in fact, if you go looking for lesbian novels on Amazon.com, about half of what you'll find are uber stories or novels written by women who got their start in Xena fandom.

Do you think that this is because male homosexuality is seen by society as more transgressive?

Partially, yes. But I think that's not the extent of it. Part of the *reason* male homosexuality is seen as more transgressive is the way male and female same-sex relations are "supposed" to work. Women are supposed to be emotional with each other, bond deeply. Men are supposed to have more trivial, less intense friendships centered around activities, not feelings. (This is a simplification, probably.)

So, to show two guys pushing towards love with each other is transgressive in a way that lesbian love isn't.

Another aspect of it, though, is the sex. First, m/m sex is seen as weirder and squickier than lesbian sex by most people. Second, there's something about anal penetration (especially in a relationship where there's the possibility of mutual penetration) that's interesting and powerful (to read about) in ways that I rarely see lesbian sex described.

Now, that says a lot about my own proclivities, (more than you wanted to know, probably) but I think there's something to it for more people than just me, given the way so many women write m/m sex so captivatingly well.

[ms_engineer]
And, if lesbians are writing femslash, where is it?

All over the place, the same as writers of every other sexual preference writing every other genre of fanfic. Lesbian femmeslashers don't necessarily hang out in their own little specialised little lesbian fandoms... *eyeroll* I've written femmeslash in ten fandoms. I've read stories by lesbian writers in at least four of five more that I can think of off-hand. Probably a lot more. And I've never read a Buffy or Xena fic.

You'd think the Buffy fandom would be full of it, as there are lesbian characters on the show.

Oh, come on! Yes, I will admit to having watched ER purely because there was a lesbian relationship *but* None of the fandoms I've written for have canon lesbian relationships. Why are you talking about lesbians as though we are some mythical, alien group, suitable only to associate with each other?

Or maybe there's not the same support and sense of community for and among f/f writers, and hence less momentum and incentive to write. If nobody likes your story because it doesn't include Hot Guy du Jour, perhaps it would affect the desire to write more f/f.

I have been involved almost exclusively with the femmeslashy aspects of fandoms and have found a great sense of community spirit amongst femmeslashers. Less momentum and incentive to write because *no one* will read a story without HottttTTt guys? Hardly. Just usually a *different* audience.

There are femmeslashers, writing lots of lovely femmeslash and being very supportive etc. etc. Just because slash writers rarely encounter them, associating with and reading stories mainly by other slashers or whatever, doesn't mean that aspect of fandom doesn't exist. Aaaargh.

[teaforme]
All over the place, the same as writers of every other sexual preference writing every other genre of fanfic. Lesbian femmeslashers don't necessarily hang out in their own little specialised little lesbian fandoms.

Didn't think so, but in my admittedly limited experience, lesbian slash and femslash writers are in the minority. Of course, how do you know someone's sexual preference unless they announce it, right?

Why are you talking about lesbians as though we are some mythical, alien group, suitable only to associate with each other?

Heh, I din't mean for it to sound like that at all! My questions arose from the fact that I simply haven't come across much well-written femslash, and wondered why. And although I know of many slash writers who identify as bi, I can't think of any who identify as lesbian. I was curious as to whether lesbian slash writers were out there, and whether they were writing femslash.

Just because slash writers rarely encounter them, associating with and reading stories mainly by other slashers or whatever, doesn't mean that aspect of fandom doesn't exist.

True! But it does mean that it's less visible. As you can tell from my questions, I had no idea that it was out there!

[carmarthen]

*Do* straight women write f/f?

Yes, on occasion. And lesbians write m/m, and straight men write m/m (I've only seen this in in pro fiction, not fan), and asexual people sometimes like reading/writing smut and romance, too.

I've given up trying to figure it out long ago, honestly. Sexual orientation can determine fictional preference, but it doesn't always seem to.

[saturnalia]

I think that Femmeslash is incredibly under-represented when it comes to fanfiction, although I can hardly speak for every fandom in existence.

And I agree with what someone said before- it's probably mostly due to the fact that most slash writers are straight females. While most are certainly not homophobic, they tend not to see the point in writing f/f relationships when they don't enjoy reading that sort of thing themselves. (There are exceptions of course- just like there are a few straight male slashers out there.)

If you're into the HP fandom, you could check out the Femmeslash Revolution on Fictionalley, and there's also a Cookie Jar for short femmeslash ficlets on the same board.